Host Sara Kacin speaks with academic leaders at Wayne State University to learn how they have developed their careers while empowering themselves and others.

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Episode notes

M. Roy Wilson, M.D., is the president of Wayne State University. Since assuming this role in 2013, President Wilson has pursued his vision to transform Wayne State into a preeminent, public, urban university known for academic and research excellence. On this episode of EmpowerED to Lead, President Wilson joins us for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, race and the importance of lifelong learning. During this discussion, he shares his insight on Wayne State's next goals and explains why flexibility is a critical component of the decision-making process.

About M. Roy Wilson, M.D.

Wayne State University President M. Roy Wilson, M.D., is a scholar, surgeon and leader driving innovation in higher education, medicine and research. Since becoming the university's 12th president in 2013, he has dramatically boosted student success, resulting in the nation's most improved graduation rate; launched programs to advance the pipeline of underrepresented students in the health sciences; overseen major initiatives to enhance the campus experience; and more. Prior to joining Wayne State, President Wilson served as deputy director for strategic scientific planning and program coordination at the National Institute on Minority Health and Health Disparities of the National Institutes of Health.

Additional resources

Learn more about the Social Justice Action Committee.

Watch President Wilson's weekly messages on YouTube and follow him on Instagram @prezmrw.

Follow EmpowerED to Lead on Twitter @WSUFacSuccess.

Transcript

Narrator:

Welcome to EmpowerED to Lead, a Wayne State University podcast for academic leaders committed to empowering their community to succeed, hosted by Dr. Sara E. Kacin, director of Wayne State's Office for Teaching and Learning and assistant provost for faculty development and success.

This podcast explores the personal journeys of academic leaders, both current and emerging, to learn more about how they've developed their careers. Dr. Kacin speaks with faculty and staff about their work and how they've empowered themselves and others along the way. By doing this, we hope to empower listeners like you, as you continue on your leadership path.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Dr. M. Roy Wilson became the 12th president of Wayne State University on Aug. 1, 2013. Since assuming leadership, President Wilson has pursued his vision to transform the university into a preeminent public urban research university known for academic and research excellence. We are so excited to have you here today on the podcast, President Wilson. Welcome!

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to it.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

So we're just going to get right into some questions here, and we're just going to go right for it: So the coronavirus pandemic has caused uncertainty, and now more than ever, it feels like leadership is such a critical skill. The Wayne State community has taken a lot of comfort in your forward-thinking leadership as a medical doctor, epidemiologist and researcher. As you navigate the university through this unprecedented time, how do you think you've grown as a leader?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, I guess the first thing I would say is that being a medical doctor certainly has been helpful, but not just in terms of the subject-matter knowledge and expertise, but also just the approach to assessing risks and making decisions based on uncertain or imprecise data. As a physician, you have to do that all the time. You're trained to do that. You're trained to always look at risk and reward, and trained to have to make at least preliminary conclusions based on whatever data you have. All those kinds of approaches to risk and data, I think, has been very helpful in navigating through this current time. So I don't think that I've necessarily grown as a leader, but what it has allowed me to do is use my training in a way that has not been used as being a university president too much previously.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

So, that's interesting to think and what tends to happen is, we're moving into fall and our WSU leaders are moving with some uncertainty as well. Do you have any advice for WSU leaders who, we don't know we don't know what might happen next week. We don't know …. And, I think, what listeners have found so comforting is that you have moved through that with ease and calmness. Do you have some advice for our WSU leaders who are leading teams that are uncertain themselves and they're uncertain, that might be helpful for them to kind of think about? One of the things that you mentioned was using data-driven decisions, so that's certainly very helpful. Are there other things that you can think of that you would say to encourage them as we move forward?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Yeah, that's a difficult one.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Oh, sorry!

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

I think it really is just an approach to assessing risk. I think that just comes with training, just [an] approach to problem solving: Is it just one specific piece of advice that I can think of? No, not really, except what you've already mentioned, which is you've got to be true to the data. You've got to be true to the science. There are certain things that you can have some control over, certain things you don't have control over, so there's no point in mulling over those issues that you don't have control over. You just have to be comfortable with the fact that you're making decisions based on the best available data at the time but that doesn't mean that things may not evolve, and further data may make you want to change your initial approach.

A very good example is, in this last video that I did, on my weekly video, I talked about the gaiter mask. Several months ago, I was so proud of myself I found these masks, these face coverings. I thought it was great because I could use them when I'm cycling, where you can't really use a regular mask and still have some protection and still protect others, and then just recently, research has shown that those space coverings are really not effective at all. So I had to backtrack and say that despite my earlier recommendation, that people shouldn't be using gaiters. Well, it's OK to be wrong. It really is. You just have to be able to be flexible enough to continue to assess data and make changes as necessary and be flexible.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

I love that. Thank you. So under your leadership, we're going to kind of switch gears here a little bit, Wayne State has become a national model for other universities with how we've prioritized degree attainment: Our graduation rate is up and the university has already exceeded its strategic plan six-year graduation rate goal ahead of schedule. How have you achieved this success?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, first of all, it's certainly a team effort. We had a great provost, and we have a great team with Monica Brockmeyer and her staff, and the thing that I think that they've done the most which is probably the most important thing is adopt the philosophy of serving each and every student. When I first came here, I did what anybody would do and I Googled the university. Somewhere along the line, I saw some comments from students; they were not flattering. There were a lot of complaints about service. There was a term that I didn't know what it meant at the time, but subsequently I found out it was being "Wayned," or being "Wayne Stated," and it was a feeling of frustration that problems would go into, I don't know, some black box somewhere and they would just keep spinning their wheels and not getting things addressed. Well, I don't see that happening very much anymore. I think that people really do try to address whatever the issues are, but that takes a bit of a culture change it takes an approach to each and every single student that is service oriented. And I think that's what they've been able to do. Obviously there are other things like, you hire advisors and things like that, but it's not really just hiring a bunch of people and throwing a lot of money into something; you really have to change the attitude that you have toward the students.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Right. And I think that's helpful because it's those overarching values of a service-centered, addressing the issues as they come up, team effort that help make all those other really important things happen. I think that was very helpful to hear. So where does WSU go next to strive for in terms of academic success?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, one of the things that we have been able to do very well is to make significant strides in our six-year graduation rate, both for the entire student body, including our African American students. But two things: One is there's still a huge gap between our Black students and white students in terms of the six-year graduation rate, so we've got to close that gap and then ultimately eliminate it, so that's number one. The second is that although we think in terms of six-year graduation, we should be thinking about four-year graduation, right? We don't talk about that very much, but we should. We should be encouraging students trying to get out in four years and by doing that, then that will improve the six-year graduation rate also.

I remember my daughter when she went to college, and she went to USC. Early on, when she was trying to decide what she was going to major in, and she was thinking about double majoring, she timidly came to me and asked whether it would be OK if she double-majored because it would mean that she wouldn't graduate until four-and-a-half years. So she never even thought about six years; she was thinking about four years, and was it OK if she took an extra half year so that she could do a double major? That's a different way of thinking. All of our students should be thinking that I'm going to graduate in four years. They may not because of various different issues, but let's not make the six-year graduation rate the goal; let's make it four years, and hopefully most of the students will graduate in six.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Thank you. So you've made diversity and inclusion a core value in Wayne State's mission and strategic plan. And you recently launched the Social Justice Action Committee. Why is this work so important to you?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, no Black man my age or near my age has escaped racism, and no Black man my age has escaped a police encounter that could have gone badly. I just feel, whatever reason, the encounters I've had, although they could have gone badly, they did not, and I'm her, so I'm acutely aware of the fact that bias both implicit and explicit is alive and well. If it's explicit, it's racism, and I've been a victim of that. So I'm just very sensitive to that. Particularly when I went to college, I went to a school that had a very small minority population it was a small school, it was only 1,800 students at the time, but there were a tiny number of Black students. Just experienced a lot of things that I don't want students to have to experience. There are different things that happen that are implicit that sometimes we're not aware of. There are different biases that we have that's built into our structures that are systematic, and you have to really make an effort to try to find these.

I'll give you a good example: Early on this was probably, I think, around 2014, 2015 I got a call from Nancy Schlichting, who was a CEO of Henry Ford at the time. She was telling me about a Black woman who works for her who she had mentored and had good feelings about thought highly of her and that she sat down with her one day to let her know that in order for her to advance any further, she really had to get an undergraduate degree and was surprised when this woman told her that she had gone to Wayne State, and she completed all the requirements, but we didn't give her a degree because at that time there was a English proficiency test that you had to pass which subsequently, well, people thought were actually culturally biased.

At some point, this English proficiency test was no longer required for graduation. Things had changed, and partly it was because of this concern that it was culturally biased. Well, she never got a degree because when she was here, that requirement was still there. But she had actually completed everything except that. So we gave her her degree. The difference that made in her life is just unbelievable. But that is an example of a systemic issue that was ultimately corrected, but it wasn't corrected in time for her to benefit. She had been out for it had been a long time, decades. But can you imagine if she had gotten the degree 20 years previously? I'm not sure it was 20 years, but it was a long time. That's an example of some of these systemic things that unless you really are looking for them, it's easy to miss. That's what I'm hoping the Social Justice Action Committee can do is help root out some of these things that we don't think about but that are operational that we should be thinking about and correcting.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Right. And I think the committees are very well thought out, and there's already really important discussions happening. So are there actions or goals that you personally are kind of thinking yourself, I really hope this comes out of the Social Justice Action Committee, that you'd be willing to share today?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

I always think that when you get groups of people together that the outcome is better than any one person. I'm just very open to see what comes out of this and without coming into it with some preconceived notions of what should or should not be the case or what should or should not be recommendations. So we'll see what comes out of it, and I'm sure people are working hard and when you have a lot of people contributing and thinking, they're likely to come up with something that's much better than me, myself, would have been able to come up with.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

I love that. Thinking about you and your own professional development, has there been a time when you've really benefited from having a mentor? Has anybody inspired you anything like that that you would like to share?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

I think we all benefit from having mentors at different stages of one's life or career. I can think of at least three that have been very important for me at different parts of my career. One was right at that point of medical school and into residency, a guy named Alec Walker, who was an epidemiologist became chair of epidemiology at Harvard. I did my research with him on some glaucoma respective data. He took me under his wing, taught me respect to analysis, epidemiology. When I was a medical student, I published my very first paper with him. I thought I was a pretty good writer until he redlined my first manuscript there probably wasn't a line that didn't have some red line through it. But I learned a lot and I stayed interested in that for the rest of my career.

The second would be Brad Straatsma, who was my department chair at UCLA in the department of ophthalmology. When I was a junior faculty member and into mid-level faculty, he was really kind of my role model. I was inspired by not only his accomplishments, but by his style. In the past, I would say that I let my emotions show too much and lost my temper fairly often, and sometimes was a little bit more physical than I probably should be. He was very cerebral, and the only way you can tell that he was upset is that when you got to know him, you can see that his ears turned red, but you wouldn't know, because his style was always the same in terms of his expression. He just had a style about him that I've tried to emulate in my leadership over the years.

Then finally, I think it's sometimes important to have someone who's a mentor who is not at your own institution, but outside your institution. That person for me has been Lou Sullivan, the secretary for health and human services under H.W. Bush. Over the years, he's been my mentor and in non-institutional settings, more in the broader political world and in the broader world of medicine and science, connections and all kinds of other ways that he's been very helpful to me over the years.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

So you find such unique ways to stay engaged with students and mentor students from posting your weekly messages on YouTube to participating in student-led book clubs. Why do you feel it's so important for you to connect with students in these ways?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, that's why we're here. I mean, we wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for the students; that's our job.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Definitely.

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

I am motivated and inspired by our students, actually. I think that the thing that motivates me and inspires me is their idealism, their sense of wanting to make a difference and the adversity that they have to overcome in many cases in order to do the things that they do. I feel that my job is to try to tackle some of these barriers so that they're allowed to be able to achieve their potential. Because I think that when I get depressed sometimes about how things are in the world, I look at some of our students and it gives me optimism. So we've got to try to break down these barriers and let them do what they do. But I learn from them all the time, and I think they're fun. I just feel like it's part of my job to try to do what I can to help them reach their potential.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Thank you so much. Leadership requires a healthy balance, and apart from reading and walking our favorite [dog], Quincey, what else do you like to do to stay centered with such a demanding position and kind of all these moving parts happening?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

You probably know the answer to that: I like to cycle. I cycled this morning already; I've got almost 2,600 miles in for the summer. Before it's out I'm hoping to have well over 3,000. I do two types of cycling. One is when I'm cycling with our group, and we're doing some very fast cycling and baselines and getting my heart rate up a lot, and it's great cardiovascular conditioning. But then the other is like I did this morning, where I'm just cycling by myself I'm going at a much slower pace. But it's an opportunity for me to clear my head and think. Some of my best decisions have been made during these times when I'm by myself and I'm able to think deeply about issues while I'm cycling.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

I love that. So as we've been talking today, some of your answers you've really given us really, really thoughtful insights. Anything from, as you're making decisions, use the data that you have in front of you to make informed decisions. And you know what? Sometimes it's OK to be wrong we'll work through that when that happens. Really think this is thoughtful, be flexible and kind of view things from a team effort that we're all in this together. One of the most important things that I think has also come out is working with groups of people. I love when you mentioned, like, I could tell you all the things that I'm thinking, but once we get a group together, that's where the magic these are my words, but that's where the magic really happens. I love that you said that. Another really important thing that you said is learning all the time: kind of getting more information, learning more and then kind of moving forward from that. Then finally, I think right now with us moving into the fall semester, it's so helpful to hear: Find something that gives you balance so that you can walk away, think deeply, some of the greatest ideas come during that time. I think that's extremely helpful to hear right now, that it's really OK to take a moment and think with everything going on.

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, you articulated that a whole lot better than I did, so thank you.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

You did. I just wrote it down as you said it! I'm going to challenge you one more time: Can you think of anything else like, "Oh my goodness, I didn't say this. I would really like to share this?" If not, wow you have given us a lot to think about and to move forward with, but I wanted to offer you that one last opportunity.

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Yeah, let me give you a kind of my philosophy in terms of leadership and teams. It's a cycling metaphor. That's kind of the reason why I enjoy cycling so much: People think of cycling as kind of an individual sport, but it's actually a team sport. One of the things I do enjoy about cycling is when I'm cycling with groups of people, and there are just certain etiquette that you have because of the whole concept of drafting. A weaker cyclist can draft off of a stronger one and be helped and so forth. A couple of things that I think the cycling analogy translates to in terms of your life working in teams first of all, when you're working together in cycling, you go whole lot faster than by yourself just because you're drafting off of someone, and then someone else takes their turn, and then you take your turn up front and you're refreshed, so you can go faster while you are up front.

So the team always goes faster than any individual. That's why, whenever you look at a cycling event like Tour de France or something, the peloton will always catch a lone cyclist that goes out and doesn't break away. It's just the way it's physics and it's just going to happen. So that's one. The second thing that I like is that you can always tell who the leader is because they're taking their turn up front. They're not just letting everyone else do the work for them. They're doing the work also; they're taking their share of the burden. I think that's important in real-life situations, is that the leader has to be up there on the front end, letting others draft off for him also. And there'll be times when you go in the back and you let others do more of the work, but it has to be shared that's how it works.

The third thing is that you typically are trying not to drop someone. If someone is having a hard time keeping up, then the leader would typically go and try to pick that person up and have them be able to try to reach the rest of the group by having them draft off of you, so the leader is always trying to look out for the weak link and trying to bring them up with the rest of the group. So those are some of the things that I think happens in cycling that I think has relevance in real-world work situations, and I think we can learn from how people cycle in groups.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

I love that example. I hope that everybody listening really ... Say "cycling" as much as you want now! Because it has a whole different meaning; when I hear that, I will remember this and be reignited and reinspired every time, so thank you for sharing that. As we're getting to our close here, President Wilson, where can our listeners follow you online and stay connected with you?

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Well, I do have an Instagram, it's @prezMRW, P-R-E-Z-M-R-W. And I think most of my in fact, I think all of my weekly videos get posted on the Instagram. Because I've been doing the weekly videos, I haven't been doing a lot of other postings. Typically, when I'm not doing the weekly videos and I'm traveling and stuff like that, I do post things that might be of interest to the readership. So I'm not into all of the social media, but Instagram is one that I do use.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Sure. Thank you, thank you. So we thank you so much for coming to talk to us today on EmpowerED to Lead and appreciate everything that you're doing for the university. We thank you so much.

Dr. M. Roy Wilson:

Thank you. I enjoyed it.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Be sure to join us next time on EmpowerED to Lead.

Narrator:

We're glad to have you listening to EmpowerED to Lead. To learn more about our podcast, please follow us on Twitter @WSUFacSuccess