Host Sara Kacin speaks with academic leaders at Wayne State University to learn how they have developed their careers while empowering themselves and others.

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Episode notes

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D., is a professor of communication, distinguished service professor, and associate dean of curricular and student affairs in the College of Fine, Performing and Communication Arts at Wayne State University. Her work focuses on conflict and conflict resolution at the interpersonal, group, intergroup and organizational level, with recent research revolving around uncivil and bullying behaviors in the academic environment. On this episode of EmpowerED to Lead, she shares her wisdom on building healthy working relationships and reveals the social skill that everybody should have in their repertoire.

About Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D., is a professor of communication, distinguished service professor, and associate dean of curricular and student affairs in the College of Fine, Performing and Communication Arts at Wayne State University. Her work focuses on conflict and conflict resolution at the interpersonal, group, intergroup and organizational level. Her recent research has centered on the nature, effects and amelioration of uncivil and bullying behaviors in the workplace, particularly in academic environments. She has worked with a variety of universities to address these issues.

Additional resources

Follow Loraleigh Keashly on Twitter @lkeashly.

Follow EmpowerED to Lead on Twitter @WSUFacSuccess.

Transcript

Narrator:

Welcome to EmpowerED to Lead, a Wayne State University podcast for academic leaders committed to empowering their community to succeed, hosted by Dr. Sara E. Kacin, director of Wayne State's Office for Teaching and Learning and assistant provost for faculty development and success.

This podcast explores the personal journeys of academic leaders, both current and emerging, to learn more about how they've developed their careers. Dr. Kacin speaks with faculty and staff about their work and how they've empowered themselves and others along the way. By doing this, we hope to empower listeners like you as you continue on your leadership path.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

We're talking today with Loraleigh Keashly, Wayne State professor and academic director and associate dean of curriculum and student affairs in the College of Fine, Performing and Communication Arts. Her research, teaching and consulting focus on conflict and conflict resolution at the interpersonal, group, intergroup and organizational level. Her main research focus is the nature, effects and amelioration of uncivil and bullying behaviors in the workplace. And she's focused her recent attention on the academic environment and works with universities on these issues.

Loraleigh, I am so excited to be talking with you today, and one thing that I wanted to kind of start on is your focus for your research centers a lot around bullying and aggression in the workplace, and you've worked with different universities on addressing this in academic environments. Why is this work so important to you?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

I think it's well, I know it's important to me because everything we experience and everything we do, we do in relationship to each other, so nobody exists on their own: We're always working it out with other people. And so, for me, it's always been really important that those relationships be the best they possibly can be, and then I'm fascinated by the workplace because I think the workplace is one of the very few social contexts where different people come together, often around a shared goal. I mean, we know that people segregate in neighborhoods, they segregate in their relationships, they segregate in lots of places. And while it's not to say that some workplaces don't segregate along a number of dimensions, there's, I think, a greater opportunity there to be together with people who in other circumstances we may not have any other kind of relationship. And so those two things together believing that we create things together, and then being in a workplace where there's a greater opportunity for different people to be together and different however we define that and I want those kinds of relationships as much as possible to be as constructive and as nourishing as possible to each other because I just think that's an incredibly rich environment to do it and we have the greatest opportunity in that kind of a context.

Bullying and aggression, it's always kind of an interesting thing because I've done this kind of work for over 25 years. It came out of a friend of mine having a difficult situation in a workplace and calling me and saying, "What am I supposed to do?" Because my background is in conflict resolution too, and I gave her my best advice and told her what to do, but the situation she described struck me as something that wasn't just a conflict that there was something else going on, and like any academic, I thought, Ooh, what does the literature say? So then I went and looked in the literature and I went, "Hey, back in the '90s, they weren't saying a whole lot. Let's see what's going on." And through that, it's brought me up to this time in which I realized that there were interactions that were going on that were beyond the little bits the kinds of everyday conflicts we have with people, misunderstandings, miscommunications, even some of the competitiveness that exists, but that this was something that was much more harmful. And so I wanted to raise it up and have people look at it, and like many researchers, we are kind of behind the people who always have the experience. So people have been talking about things like this for quite some time, but we hadn't really been paying attention in research. And so I was given an opportunity to do that by a colleague's experience and then it started me on this road, and then for the last 12 years, I've focused in universities I figured it was probably time for me to pay attention to organizations that I existed in and to see what that was like.

So it's about giving people information, it's about consciousness raising, and it's about looking for ways to challenge those so that people can have more constructive kinds of relationships and to sort them out from things like conflict and negative performance appraisals that are done constructively. And in the case of universities, particularly amongst faculty, what gets covered by academic freedom and what does not. So those kinds of things helping people think through that while we're going to have difficult and challenging interactions with each other, most of them will not be aggressive, most of them will not be bullying. They're hard, they're difficult, they're messy, but they're not the kind of demeaning and destructive types of difficulties that bullying and aggression represent.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Yeah. So that kind of makes me think about, what kind of advice would you give to the people listening to help them build or maintain healthy working relationships so kind of on that other side, kind of proactive things we can do?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Right. So the Reader's Digest condensed version, right?

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Understood, yes!

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

For me, a lot of it really comes down to ... Well, there's two levels at which this operates: It manifests at an interpersonal level, but it's very much systemically fed, and we know that because we know that certain groups of people tend to be more likely to be victimized by aggression and bullying in the workplace than other groups do, so people of color, women, people of other than binary gender identities, people with disabilities, you name it, we check off the list, right?

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Sure.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

So, systemically, there are things that go on in organizations that will support these kinds of behaviors. So part of it is looking at our systems and seeing the kinds of things that we reward in our systems, so do we reward hyper-competitiveness? Do we support collaboration? Do we support constructive conflict management now? Because there can still be environments that are highly avoidant of conflict, but that doesn't mean that there aren't going to be issues there. And some of this stuff goes underground.

At a more interpersonal level, what I say to people is, because I believe that we do things in concert with each other we do things in relationship with each other that I think a really important thing for people to be doing is to build relationships with people in their units and in their universities, so we'll talk about universities: Get to know people, get them to know you, and then as things happen, people then have a context within which to understand that about you. So, Sara, you and I have known each other for a while, and so maybe we have a situation where I do something in particular that does feel quite harsh: You would look at that situation and you may not like it; you'd also go, though, and say in the broader context of how I know her, "Does this sound right? Does this sound typical for her?" And if you have a broader context within which to assess what I did, chances are you're more willing to give me the benefit of the doubt chances are you're more willing to ask me about it, that kind of thing.

So I think one of the things that's really important is for people to, from the beginning, build relationships with each other and I'm not talking sucking up, and I'm not talking that kind of thing. I'm really talking about getting to know people and just getting familiar with each other, so that as things develop that people have a context within which to understand what's happened, or at least to stay open to an explanation and not be immediately accusatory or shut down, as the case may be.

So that's some of what I do. I mean, policies, too we love policies. And when I became a chair, I learned that there often were reasons for policies, which is not just that it was heavy handed administrative stuff, but that it was actually addressing things that had a pattern to them, a regularity to them and how it is we wanted as a unit, as an organization to be characterized, to be experienced by people. So policies are really important, and they're also statements and in this case, by a university that says, "This is who we are and this is what we value." We have policies on sexual harassment, we have policies on discrimination and we have policies often on workplace violence, bullying, or more psychological forms of aggression, we have not tended to do that but that's changed a lot over the last few years. A lot of universities now are moving to anti-bullying policies, respect policies. There's lots of different ways that that gets characterized.

And they're aspirational they're statements about who we are and what we are, and how different kinds of things either work in favor of that, supporting those values or contradict those values. I think what's really important, too, is that it'd be a conversation that goes up and down and sideways. So it's not something that administration imposes on people, or necessarily that it comes from only one side of the house, but that it's a conversation and a series of conversations. Because I think it's in the conversations that we get information we don't have, we develop more deeper connections or, as my colleague Jane Dutton from the University of Michigan says, more "high-quality" connections.

And it's in that process that we actually start manifesting how we want to be treated. And so the product becomes important, the policy out of that becomes important, but it's the process that got us there that really is the product in a sense. So I would say it would need to be talking to people, listening to people, sharing my ideas, sharing the president's ideas, sharing your idea, sharing the union's ideas all of that. Those kinds of conversations, I think, are really the process through which we can get to some of the things that we want and to identify some of the things we don't want and how we want to deal with them.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Yeah. I really love that: that idea of getting to know people in your circles or who are around you, but I love how you said it. It's not just, "How's the day going," but it's actually getting to know the person so that you can appreciate and understand the context, so then that gives you information to help when those situations arise. I think that's a really valuable key that I think many of our listeners would find helpful.

For right now, I'd like to take a moment to kind of switch gears and because I do know you a little bit, I know that service has played a key role throughout your experience at Wayne State as a faculty member, and you have participated in a range of committees at Wayne State and not too long ago, you were recognized as one of the university's first distinguished service professors. Congratulations on that.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Thank you.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

So how has service helped you grow as a leader at Wayne State?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

I'm going to tie it back to relationships again. Doing service is stepping outside in many ways of my most immediate job, in a sense, which was, for a long time, teaching and research. And now I'm also teaching research, and now I also do academic administration. So to me it was about knowing the place. We often talk about the word "organization" as a thing, but it's actually a set of processes it's about organizing. And so that dynamic and active kind of process that goes on and the kind of university we are, or we want to be, we're continually creating and co-creating the whole time. And if I want to be part of that, if I'm a good community member, which is part of my definition is, I need to be involved in that, and that involves doing service. I do understand, from my point of view, that while service doesn't necessarily seem to get the financial reward per our contracts and things like that, I know that if people did not engage in service, that the university would not function and I totally believe that. And so if I'm going to be a good organizational member, I need to participate in the service. The other part is if I want to have influence and to learn more, then I need to be engaged outside of my unit; inside, but also outside of my unit.

One of the most profound experiences I had here at Wayne State was in 2005, 2006, when I was asked to be part of the HLC the Higher Learning Commission steering committee, because we were going for our reaccreditation. And I was part of a group that was 35 people from all across the institution, all different both sides of the house, both academic and the business side of the house and we were working to assess where we were, do our reports and things like that. And it had me working with people that I had never worked with before; it had me working with units that I had never worked with before. And it's particularly challenging to maintain a stereotype, or a set of expectations about other units and other people when you actually have to start working with them. So, as an academic, I might have thought about the "business side" of the house as not particularly responsive to who we are and what we do, but I found out that was not the case. And I also like to think that because they were engaging with me and other folks like me other faculty, academic staff, people coming from the academic side of the house that their own assumptions and stereotypes about who we were were challenged. And I think when we challenge these stereotypes and assumptions, it opens people up, so it's harder for them to hold fast to a particular image if they start meeting people who are part of that group, but who just don't affirm very little about what their stereotype is, so I think service is a commitment we have to being a member of a community. I see the university as a community. I think it has a number of different groups in it. I think all parts of the community are necessary I know some people might disagree with some of that or the size of different parts of the community. But if we're truly community members, then part of it is we have to do the work that helps the community maintain its cohesiveness and work toward its health. So sometimes some of the committees I'm on are about going after things or addressing things that are not healthy. So I have the good fortune right now to be on an anti-bullying policy task force chaired by Jen Wareham and really motivated strongly by the Academic Senate and most of the provost's office. And that's addressing behaviors and interactions that are not constructive that are very harmful and that we have a commitment to want to enhance and build a stronger kind of relationship.

So I think service is really important in the survival and the success of our institution, and I've often encouraged my colleagues to step outside the department if they get a chance to be on a college committee, do it. If they get a chance to be on a university committee, do it. Because they're going to meet so many interesting people coming from so many different units. Sometimes you'll have the experience of "Phew, thank gosh we're not like so and so's department." Other times you're going, "Ooh wow, you mean you could do that in a department? I never thought we could do something like that." And then with an institution the size of Wayne State, just trying to get your arms around it and understand what's all involved, it's getting out to those levels and getting involved with those people gives you really important information in a much broader and deeper perspective than you have if you stay embedded in your particular unit.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Sure. If you were to ask and I know this because people came to me and said this people would say that you often give a voice to those who may or may not feel like they have one yet.  And we know that there are colleagues on campus that have done that. That's a pretty important role, and I wonder if that has something to do with the just amazing variety of committees and working groups and things that you have chosen to be a part of on campus, anything from child care to climate study to anti-bullying. So can you talk a little bit about and I didn't mean to take you off guard by the first part of that, and I think you kind of started to go into that with just advice with trying to go outside your department, but can you talk a little bit about how you think through and decide where your passion takes you and what you should be a part of on campus?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

First of all, I am deeply touched by how you started that out. If I'm able to help others or bring attention to voices and people who are not heard or don't feel heard, I'm grateful for that. I'm glad some folks think I'm able to do that and I'm committed to that. In terms of how I choose, it comes down to being asked! I mean, it really does. I mean, one of the things that'll sometimes happen and it certainly happens at our university and it will happen in other places is once you start becoming part of these things, you get known. And then if people like what they've known about you, then they have something that's some committee or some project and they think, "Who would be good for this?" And so then you pop to their mind I mean pop up into people's minds because people have seen me and hopefully have thought that what I did made a contribution and it was important. So I think being asked is a big thing. It was only recently I actually sought something out I won't say what it is! I reached out and said to somebody, "I think I would like to be involved with this because I have this kind of background and here's an opportunity, I think, for me to see if all the stuff I've been teaching all this time is actually doable is actually workable  in a real-life situation."

So that was, actually, probably one of the first times that I went out to do that. But I think what I feel most about is I am deeply touched deeply when people ask me. Yeah, I just am, and it's rare that I will turn something down if I don't see how I can contribute, and/or I know of some other people that maybe are looking for an opportunity like this, or I think this might be that space that they can move into and kind of add their voice. Because that's one of the things that's important to me in a leadership capacity in working with our staff, is I want to know where they want to go, and what they see themselves doing, and what are some of the things they're interested in in the institution. And one of the cool things is when you're like me and you're throughout the institution, you're doing stuff, you hear things, and you know about things. And so I can say things like, "Well, I think you should talk to so and so," or I'll say the particular person, I'll say, "There's something forming around this and I've heard you talk about that, and I want you to think about being part of that because I think that would be really important." Because I want people to have that platform and that audience and an opportunity now they may decide at that point it's not for them; I go, "OK, it's still in the back of my mind as we move through or as you talk to somebody and you hear about something, I'm happy to help you think it through." So I like to be able to bring people's voices to it. I do say to people, too, who ask, just for them to think about the kinds of things that they want to do where they could envision themselves, like, "Is there somebody on campus where you think, That's the kind of job I want? That's the kind of position I want." And then we can talk about, "Well, what is it about that position and what are the kinds of experiences that would be good for that? And how could we go about doing that?"

Now, I say that to you, Sara, that this is what I would do with other people. Have I done that for myself? Not as deliberately and thoughtfully as that, and that's OK because my philosophy is more I don't even have words for it. I'm sure somebody else probably does, but my philosophy is more whatever comes is what I work with. But the interesting part is, if you're throughout the institution and you move around and you talk to people, you hear about more things. So in a sense, more things come. So if you can get out of your unit by doing some service, if you can get out by taking on another set of responsibilities, you've now created more opportunities for you to hear things where you learn things how they work and possibly be able to start envisioning where you might be part of that.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

I love it. And what's so lovely about it is the idea of it's OK if you haven't been asked you can actually ask yourself to be part of things as well, so very helpful to hear as well.

So I'm going to switch gears on you again a little bit. So, in general, let's talk about coronavirus: So how do you think the communications field has been impacted by coronavirus?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

OK. So I'm giggling a little bit here because my communication colleagues will be listening to me and seeing how I'm going to answer this. And I'm giggling because I'm actually a psychologist by background: I'm a social psychologist by training. And I came into a communication department because my specialty is resolution conflict management, and there was a history here at Wayne State where we had a program, and then it moved into communication and I came with it. So I had this real unique opportunity, as someone trained in one discipline, to be with and work in another discipline, which is and has continued to be an amazing and energizing experience for me.

I always think I was fortunate because communication has actually got multiple disciplines within it. And so I thought, Well, if you had to have someone come from another discipline into another department, it's great to have come into a department that already had a variety of different perspectives and sub-discipline or disciplinary orientations. And so my focus has been in workplaces, and it's been primarily about conflict, so that's where some of my stuff comes.

I know that from the conflict resolution field, the management field, the conflict studies field, that they have really engaged quite proactively around the situations that have developed as a result of the pandemic, but also as a result of social justice violations like George Floyd's death his murder. And they've been out there being part of those conversations, and one of the things that conflict resolution has taken on, and communication in relationship to that, is a recognition that conflict resolution could be used as a strategy to tamp down things that shouldn't be tamped down yet. That the volume needs to be turned up a bit more because not enough people are engaged and taken it seriously. But in the conflict resolution field, we have some pretty strong values about wanting to do that in non-violent ways, so trying to figure that out becomes important. More broadly though, communication, when you think about the pandemic, I think of my colleague Matt Seeger our crisis communication guru who's been very active in the institution, but also in the field and just how principles of effective crisis communication and managing crisis has become really important for people. I think the conflict management and thinking has been useful as we've polarized even more in this environment because we have less direct interactive contact with each other, more virtual, which means we need to be more intentional, more explicit in our communications. We need to be more intentional about building relationships. Where before I could count on the fact I'd run into you, Sara, on campus, I can't count on that anymore, so if I want to have a relationship with you if I want to build something with you on a project or whatever I need to be much more intentional, much more focused on that. So that means I need to be thinking about what my needs are, but also what your needs are, what the institution's needs are, how I can build a relationship with you.

And I think communication as a discipline is really well-situated to provide perspectives, but also resources to help people manage things like virtual environments, manage polarized debates and dialogues. And the notion of identity not only social identity, but also personal identity and how we navigate that and how we negotiate that through these different media and with each other the whole time, so that's probably incredibly vague, but it's a very complex question.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Sure, sure and I knew that! Sometimes it's just those initial thoughts that come to mind, I think, were exactly right. And I think they're very helpful.

So some of the things that you started to talk about earlier were if somebody had come to you and was talking about goals that they might have in their career, and you kind of walk through a great dialogue example of some questions that could be asked so who do you seek out as a mentor for your own professional development?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Well, you see, that statement actually presumes that I've set a path for professional development!

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

And I said you did! You did. Yes.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

And I still do that. However, having said that, I remember when I took on the role of interim chair back in 2010, and it happened fairly quickly because my then chair went on to be interim dean at the time, I thought, Whoa. I mean, I've seen this chair in action, but I know that I am who I am, and I don't know that I would chair it exactly the way, but I don't really know what all is involved in chairing. So what I did is I thought about it, and I thought, Who amongst the people I have met in this institution who have experience as chairs would I go to? I would like to have those people, and so I reached out to two people, and I said to them, "I'm entering into this new experience, and I would really appreciate your advice at the beginning and also if you'd be willing for me to kind of throw some ideas around with you or problem-solve with you." And both of them agreed to do it. And I chose both of them for very different reasons: One chaired a very large department, which was about the same size as ours. I had lots of opportunity to observe him and what he did, and I really liked it. And he had a great sense of humor. So I was like, OK, those all come together nicely for me. And the other person was also dealing with a department that had actually become very, very large much larger than ours and had multiple disciplines in it that had been merged together, and so I knew that they would probably quite how they navigated all of those different perspectives and things like that. So I chose both of them and then over time I was able to sometimes call them up and say, "OK, I've got a situation, and I want to bounce some ideas off you and tell me what do you think about them?"

So I think that's that. Another way I choose is I observe people. I mean, we're in meetings, we observe hopefully, we're all observing people all the time! Having that observer on your shoulder who watches to see. I also was trained in small-group dynamics, which has really enriched my experience because when I'm in a group, I actually watch to see who talks to whom, and who people acknowledge when they come in, and so I can get a sense about where people are feeling like they're leaning toward. And then I'm curious about that, like, why are they leaning toward that person? Sometimes it's not always for the best reasons, but I do look to see how other people are reacting to them and what they do. And if what I'm seeing, I go, "Hey, I wouldn't have thought to do that but, boy, that's really, I think there's something there." And so in a case like that, either I'll just watch them for a while, or sometimes if I'm particularly or really feel there's a number of things there, I'll talk to them about it and ask them for those kinds of things, and then I might make a phone call and say, "Hey, I've got a situation. What do you think? Do you mind if I bounce some ideas off you and you tell me what you think about that?"

So I think that's how I do it more I don't do it in a really super-formal way. But, again, because I get a chance to be around the institution, I get a chance, an opportunity, to interact with lots of different people. I get to see all different ways of doing things, and so my own toolbox and ways of thinking about things just kind of expands by virtue of being there.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Definitely. And it's a really helpful example, and I'm very similar like, I can't pinpoint one particular person that's the go-to person. But what's so important about that is sometimes people hear, "Oh wait, you don't have a mentor?" And it's not that at all. You can seek that out from any number of situations and experiences that you have. I think that's really, really helpful.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

And the other thing is, a mentor doesn't have to be somebody who's organizationally "superior" to you. You can have mentors; I mean, one of the things I've enjoyed about being at Wayne State with our students, but also with our faculty and staff, is we have a wide variety of age variability and background variability in lots of different ways, and so there have been much younger people than me that I have looked at and watched and I thought, Ooh, that is really what they just did there, I really like that. And I see how people have blossomed under that comment or how they responded; same token, I've learned from when somebody does something, and I see people crumble and I see them draw in or I see them burst out. I'm also aware of that kind of thing, but it can come from a colleague same level colleague or it can come from a student or another place in the organization.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Just be open and looking for it and ready to receive it, if you will.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Yeah, I like the idea of ready to receive. If you're open to it, the opportunities are there and if you're open to it, you will find no shortage of opportunities.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Definitely. So as we've been talking, Loraleigh, some of the things that I've heard you talk about and say, either through specific answers or through examples that you talked about, is building relationships from the beginning: getting to know the people a little bit more of the details and things that are going on so that you have some context as experiences move forward and you kind of have a little bit more information. Listening participatory. Be open to learning new things and evolving. I'm not going to say them all, but these are some of the things that I've overheard. Building connections, being intentional and what I love, one of the last statements, was being present in situations that you're in and really observing and being aware and learning from what's happening around you.

Are there things that we might end our call, and you might say, "Oh, I wish that was a great long list of things that we were able to get out and talk about," but is there anything that you're thinking and it's OK if, "Nope, that's a good list, Sara, we're good to go" but is there anything that you're thinking, Oh, this might have been helpful for our listeners who, some, maybe are kind of on the verge of and working toward becoming leaders that you might think would be helpful for them to know?

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Well, one of the things that I think is really, really important and I'll say this when I do trainings and stuff like that in conflict management communication: If you only have room in your social skills repertoire for one skill, let it be listening and really listening to what other people say. So if you're going to ask people a question, you need to be prepared to be with them and listen to the answer and really listen. You might dig a little bit deeper depending on what their comfort is, but genuinely listen. And I think that's the first thing going into a situation if you're a formal leader is to open up the door and find out what everybody else that your team or whomever you are with what they think about it. It can shut down creativity and innovation if, as a formal leader, you lead off with your vision, then you say to people, "So what do you have?" And you're like, "I don't know if there's room here." So listening I think is really important. I think it's core, quite frankly: You listen, and then you listen some more, and then you check to make sure you share with somebody what you said. Like you've done that several times during this interview, Sara, where you have summarized what I've said and put it back out in your own words, and I'm able to go, "Yeah, yeah." Sometimes you say it a lot better than I do, and I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to say Sara Kacin, personal communication," and do quotation marks around it.

I think the other part is, I really believe in the notion of shared leadership; this, again, is a small group dynamics terminology, but I think it's very true. So there are people who get designated as formal leaders, but leadership within a team within a unit is very shared, and people rise at different points in time with different sets of skills to manage particular things. And I think from my point of view, the very successful units are ones where people find themselves committed to the unit. They feel like they can actually speak things, but not just speak it, but that it's heard it's actually listened to. They can see how it influences things. And I think visions are more collectively defined. I've seen visions brought down from up top and I'm like, OK, I think I can get behind some of that, but I don't really know. I don't know where that comes from. And I think a lot of that for me always comes from I'm looking at the people who are on the front lines of any kind of organization because they're the ones who manifest who we are; if their sense of what values are and what's important to them, it's not reflected in the big mission statement that we have and all that other type of stuff, I don't think it's necessarily that they're wrong, but that we have potentially missed the boat in terms of engaging everybody in that conversation so that people the ones who make it work on the ground, they're pretty important to me. Because they're the ones who make real and manifest what are our values and what are our core strategic plans, strategic goals? So listening, having lots of conversations.

The other thing I would say for anybody who's doing this work by however we define this work is I think it's really important to have some healthy self-doubt and what healthy self-doubt means to me is that I recognize that I have one perspective. It may feel really terrific I may want to convince other people it's the only perspective to have but you have to have enough doubt about yourself because for me what that means is then I stay open enough that I might hear or learn something other than what I already think I know. And so it's OK to have doubt in yourself I think that's OK.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Wow. That is very, very helpful. Thank you so much, Loraleigh, for being with us today. We thank you for your time and really appreciate your insights about relationships and leadership on campus very helpful, I think, to our listeners, and we thank you for being here.

Loraleigh Keashly, Ph.D.:

Oh, well, thanks for the opportunity. It was really sweet. I appreciate it.

Sara Kacin, Ph.D.:

Be sure to join us next time on EmpowerED to Lead.

Narrator:

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